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That's the street name... - Fandom fail...the blackout Bingo edition
The Bitch Who Knew She Owned The Moon
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Fandom fail...the blackout Bingo edition
So, there's this petition to make Kirk/Spock canon. And that's problematic (not least because it seems to be about seeing slash fiction onscreen and not any actual interest in LGBT representation) and plenty of people point out the flaws. But they ignore all of all that, and then in a discussion about ways to improve the situation some...bright person says "For people who support LGBT interests not to sign the petition or support us because they don't support the pairing. It's like if civil rights supporters decided not to support the movement because they didn't like MLK Jr.." Yes, that MLK Jr. You know the one that was killed because he fought for Civil Rights.

People...I'm about out of patience for anything resembling a teaching moment. And comments like that one have a lot to do with it. Especially when many of the people this "movement" claim to represent keep telling them that they're doing it wrong and they just keep fetishizing ignoring them. And the fail just gets piled higher and deeper when you add in the skeevy race issues interwoven into this mess aside from the MLK name dropping. I have this distinct urge to start yelling rude things about intersectionality and representation (there is nothing more hilarious to me than the white women that want to tell WOC that Uhura is not a good enough representation of a heroine as long as she's with Spock because somehow a WOC can't get the white guy and be kick ass) but my blood pressure is just starting to come down from the other events outside of fandom of this week that were full of fail.

So, instead of a long laborious point by point breakdown of all the ways that fandom is doing it wrong (again!) I'm just going to come out and say that this shit is unacceptable. And if you're not going to listen to LGBT/POC folks (the two are not mutually exclusive by the way) when they tell you that you're doing it wrong? Don't be surprised when they don't support your efforts to make fandom more "inclusive" and "welcoming" on *your* terms. Because being invited in only to satisfy prurient interests (until you no longer satisfy them) and having your history co-opted when convenient isn't inclusive or welcoming. It's the same old bigotry dressed in a post-racial context free bow. And when we turn away to have our conversations and squee without you? Just remember, you created the need for those spaces and those groups. This is your mess. Now clean it up or don't, but don't get pissy when we refuse to clean it up for you.

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Current Mood: aggravated aggravated

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lisaquestions From: lisaquestions Date: July 24th, 2009 05:37 am (UTC) (Link)
Yeah, this is where LGBT people need to prioritize our struggles for civil rights.

I'm not even going to look and see if the phrase "ride in the back of the bus" got used.
commodorified From: commodorified Date: July 27th, 2009 07:09 am (UTC) (Link)
Eh, if it were about having openly queer characters in Star Trek, it's not exactly my _number one priority_, but yeah, more openly queer (and non-tragic please) queer characters with lead roles in the genre and in media in general? This is a good thing. It has value.

But this was a botched, stupid, and yeah, racist way of trying to get there. And I'm honestly not sure it's necessary to petition and agitate at this time. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure it's needed.

With all the incredible fail inherent in Torchwood/Dr Who, those shows did do this: they showed that you can have a stunning success with openly queer and bi characters playing lead roles. A few more like that and it'll just be normal, and we've won.
pretzelcoatl From: pretzelcoatl Date: July 24th, 2009 05:47 am (UTC) (Link)
I wish fandoms would surprise me. Just once.
bay_bus_rider From: bay_bus_rider Date: July 24th, 2009 07:39 am (UTC) (Link)
Yep.
dakiwiboid From: dakiwiboid Date: July 24th, 2009 05:47 am (UTC) (Link)

Why don't these people just get lives?

Admittedly, I've never been particularly impressed by K/S fanfic. Ever. In all these years.

I do not take kindly to having anyone try to force me to think any particular way, and this is more of the same, aside from the definite racist tone to the "movement".

I suspect also that the new movie didn't show enough sexual attraction between Spock and Kirk that they've clung to all these years to please them, and that's enough to piss them off, even without the prominence of Uhura.

The filmmakers were in no way obliged to consult fanfic canon in making this movie. Hell, in many ways they barely consulted the standard canon.

A lot of what fanfic has always seemed to me to be about, supposedly, was the freedom to let your imagination roam free. When you legislate pairings, you destroy that freedom. I say to hell with it!

Grrr.....
pingback_bot From: pingback_bot Date: July 24th, 2009 06:01 am (UTC) (Link)

Pull up your goddamned pants!

User unusualmusic referenced to your post from Pull up your goddamned pants! saying: [...] What karynthia saidBecause some people seem to believe that we cannot see your dirty racial laundry re: Uhura and Spock, mixed with teh smelly misogyny that plagues all the other females who have the unfortunately plot point of ... [...]
amokk From: amokk Date: July 24th, 2009 06:12 am (UTC) (Link)
I hate "allies".
princessrugger From: princessrugger Date: July 24th, 2009 06:52 am (UTC) (Link)
ok, i was pretty much ignoring this bc i don't give a shit about fandom and only ever pay attention to it when you and delux link to people showing ass, but i have insomnia and i read all this and now i'm annoyed. how do these people not understand that they are idiots? really, you are expecting to be taken seriously for asking to see nonsensical man-porn? you think this is what actual gaybos give a rat's ass about? what's that, now you're invoking dead civil rights leaders to talk about the importance of having more resources to touch yourself to? really? i'm sorry, you are grounded from the internet until further notice.
heliophobe From: heliophobe Date: July 24th, 2009 06:53 am (UTC) (Link)
I will agree with all of the above and also add:

In what way does Kirk/Spock "make sense" as these people are so bafflingly claiming? I am having real trouble wrapping my head around how that fits into ANY proper canon.
meopta From: meopta Date: July 24th, 2009 08:01 pm (UTC) (Link)
If you want to think about them having sex and need permission... oh no, wait....

It's always annoyed me, this slash, because it is only 'makes sense' if you cannot comprehend of a loving, long term, mutually supportive relationship with a physical attraction. People cannot be sex negative or sexually unattracted and still love another person sincerely and deeply if not romantically.

It makes me kinda furious actually. It's not 'real' without fluid exchange.
bay_bus_rider From: bay_bus_rider Date: July 24th, 2009 08:14 am (UTC) (Link)
Are these people really confusing their squee for some kind of civil rights struggle? What BS. The insulting MLK comparison is just icing on the cake.

What's funny is that most discussions of race or misogyny in fandom lead inexorably to "well, it's just fandom, why are you taking it so seriously?" But now that it can support a white male couple, it's revolutionary.

Edited at 2009-07-24 08:18 am (UTC)
alumiere From: alumiere Date: July 24th, 2009 09:17 am (UTC) (Link)
"Are these people really confusing their squee for some kind of civil rights struggle? What BS. The insulting MLK comparison is just icing on the cake."

This is the part that really gets me - almost any positive LGBT portrayal of a featured character in ST would be awesome, but Kirk/Spock? I just can't see it, nor from Kirk's behavior at the Academy or his reaction to Spock/Uhura does it feel like it would fit his character (come on - he's a bit of a misogynist ass in the film, as he was in TOS), and Spock is obviously in a relationship already.

What is it with fandom and the sense of entitlement it seems to breed? I've been reading and watching sci-fi for 35 years now, but never knew about fandom until maybe the last five years, and I honestly find so many of the attitudes appalling - didn't your parents teach you how to behave in public? Don't you realize how insulting this crap is, not to mention how degrading to those of us who do? The creators/writers/actors/etc are NOT your bitch.

Edited at 2009-07-24 09:19 am (UTC)
From: slinksgirl Date: July 24th, 2009 09:26 am (UTC) (Link)
I don't know about a kirk/spock cannon, but I wouldn't say no to a kirk/spock sandwich.

OH YEAH, BABY!
From: slinksgirl Date: July 24th, 2009 09:27 am (UTC) (Link)
Oh, and this was the only constructive comment I had about fandom. Sorry!
theloa From: theloa Date: July 24th, 2009 10:03 am (UTC) (Link)
K/S canon ... I don't think that word means what they think it means. Ianto knows what I'm talking about.
From: cleojones Date: July 24th, 2009 10:12 am (UTC) (Link)
I'm trying to stay positive. I really am, but the entitled stupid layered with EPIC selfishness.

I...

There was a reason why I usually stay in the safer circles of fandom. Love shiny new ST:Reboot. Not too keen on many of the fans.

I am really curious to see how this person is going to re-word her petition to make nice with the LGBT's.
amokk From: amokk Date: July 24th, 2009 07:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
But didn't you read? It's already pushing forward the LGBT movement! I mean, aim high, aim Kirk/Spock!
countess_baltar From: countess_baltar Date: July 24th, 2009 11:35 am (UTC) (Link)

via metafandom

People...I'm about out of patience for anything resembling a teaching moment.

Teaching moment for fandom in three words: Mr. Harry Alford.
riotlounge From: riotlounge Date: July 24th, 2009 11:42 am (UTC) (Link)
UGH I HATE SLASH FICTION WRITERS FOR THIS REASON UGH GUGH THEY AREN'T GAY, STOP TRYING TO MAKE THEM THAT.

I really, really hate people who force heterosexual men into gay couples that make no sense from canon. It's just fairly wrong. It's just because they want to masturbate to a sexy man couple and not because they have some real intelligent perspective as to how the characters are really gay.

It makes me SO angry.
maerhys From: maerhys Date: July 24th, 2009 01:43 pm (UTC) (Link)
LOL! Really? Fictional characters.... wow. I hope you have some of that righteous anger left over for actual issues.
kibbles From: kibbles Date: July 24th, 2009 12:38 pm (UTC) (Link)
See? NO GOOD CAN COME FROM (SLASH) FANFIC.

I always had that feeling, this just proves it!

I need to go in the shower and scrub everything about that whole conversation from my mind. (Or I need to get ready to take Ted to speech/occupational/physical therapy.)
amokk From: amokk Date: July 24th, 2009 07:13 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yay, someone who agrees about fanfic!
sethg_prime From: sethg_prime Date: July 24th, 2009 12:44 pm (UTC) (Link)
I still haven't seen the new Trek movie, but now I'm looking forward to Galaxy Quest II.
valsadie From: valsadie Date: July 24th, 2009 01:40 pm (UTC) (Link)
Thank you for having the nerve to use the word fetishize. That was what I really wanted to say about this, but I didn't want to go there with that. Yes, I used restraint in trying to discuss this -- ain't that ironic??
i_dreamed_i_was From: i_dreamed_i_was Date: July 24th, 2009 01:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
Okay, but did I tell you it turns out that I am only a couple degrees of separation away from Chris Pine? One of the artists I work closely and privately with has a model/actor/musician nephew who happens to be Chris Pine's BFF. Not that that adds anything to this discussion, but I keep forgetting to mention it.
doctoreon From: doctoreon Date: July 24th, 2009 01:45 pm (UTC) (Link)
Guuuuuuuuuuuuurl, it's not even 7am. You can't make me click those links.
maerhys From: maerhys Date: July 24th, 2009 01:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think I missed the boat on this one because WHY would this even be wanted? Slash is about subtext and transformative works – not canon. To claim that a K/S relationship within the movie would somehow move a progressive LGBT agenda forward.... seems off. The typical analogous bullshit is more of the same.
meleth From: meleth Date: July 24th, 2009 07:18 pm (UTC) (Link)
If they were petitioning for more GLBT representation in Star Trek, it would be totally awesome, because that's sadly lacking. But no, they basically just want to see Kirk and Spock fuck.
heather From: heather Date: July 24th, 2009 01:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
Oh my god, this.

Fandom is so goddamn disappointing sometimes most of the time.
_yggdrasil From: _yggdrasil Date: July 24th, 2009 01:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
You know, it was strongly hinted in the original series that there was a vibe going between Spock and Uhura. (She even made him smile by singing about him. If that's not flirting, I don't know what is.) But it wasn't until the latest movie that the writers specifically said, hey, guess what! All that hinting? It's true, Spock and Uhura really are a couple. You'd think all these people who claim to be progressive would be pleased by that instead of wanting to throw out the black female character who's in the way of being able to drool over seeing their two favorite male character fuck.
thessalian From: thessalian Date: July 24th, 2009 02:29 pm (UTC) (Link)
(there is nothing more hilarious to me than the white women that want to tell WOC that Uhura is not a good enough representation of a heroine as long as she's with Spock because somehow a WOC can't get the white guy and be kick ass)

...Four words, and then I will start laughing hysterically:

Zoe. Alleyne. Washburn. Firefly.

And now I'm going to laugh myself into a coma, kthx.

Edited at 2009-07-24 02:31 pm (UTC)
mina_kat9 From: mina_kat9 Date: July 24th, 2009 04:52 pm (UTC) (Link)
You know, I was gonna write this long ass response to the post, go on about how I despair of my fandoms, etc....


Yeah, but then you went and won the 'verse in 4 words, so I'll just sit over here now.
hand2hand From: hand2hand Date: July 24th, 2009 03:30 pm (UTC) (Link)
so very sorry.
popelizbet From: popelizbet Date: July 24th, 2009 04:51 pm (UTC) (Link)
This is why I'm not really a part of fandom in the sense of fic and ships and whatternot. Because every time I look, someone is being a complete idiot.
amokk From: amokk Date: July 24th, 2009 07:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
+1
shechinah_el From: shechinah_el Date: July 24th, 2009 04:57 pm (UTC) (Link)

they should just issue a disclaimer

"If I write COC in my fics, you as a POC are obligated to like them. If you don't like them, ur doing it wrong and you need to provide me with an abundance of Google links to studies and research which outline why. I will let you know if those studies are valid. Don't even THINK about using your so-called 'life experience' as a POC as evidence because that is anecdotal and it ain't worth crap. Also, if you say that *I* did it wrong, you're a reverse racist and I'll be making a blog post about it which will be supported by my legions of white fanfic-writing friends, which further proves that you are wrong.

On the off chance that I agree with you, I'm going to need you to be ready with some patient, friendly explanations about why. If you're nice enough about it and placate me, I *might* consider this viewpoint. Remember, you can't force white people to agree with your views on race but it's your job to try-- otherwise, how could we ever change???

Thanks & have a nice day! *smiley face*"

That should clear things up nicely!
karnythia From: karnythia Date: July 24th, 2009 04:59 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: they should just issue a disclaimer

That just summed up every one of these conversations...ever.
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